Gazing into the Crystal Ball: What's next for India's energy transition?

Hosts: Sandeep Pai & Shreya Jai

Producer: 101Reporters, a pan India network of grassroots reporters that produces original stories from rural India

[Podcast intro]

Welcome to season 4 of the India Energy Hour podcast. This podcast explores the most pressing hurdles and promising opportunities of India's energy transition through an in depth discussion on policies, financial markets, social movements and science. Your hosts for this episode are Shreya Jai, Delhi based energy and climate journalist, and Dr. Sandee Pai, Washington based energy transition researcher, and author. The show is produced by 101Reporters, a pan India network of grassroots reporters that produces original stories from rural India.

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[Intro]
Season 4 of The India Energy Hour Podcast is here.

To kickstart the season, the hosts are here to give a primer on what all to expect in India's journey towards energy transition.

It is the year of general elections in India. A lot of policies and political decisions hinge on that.

But there is other exciting stuff too. From India's maiden critical mineral auction to more engagement on just transition, this could be the year India walks the talk on energy transition.

Tune in to get a 360 degree view of India's energy and climate action landscape as we step into the new year.

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[Podcast interview]

Shreya Jai: Hello, everyone. Welcome to season 4 of The India Energy Hour Podcast. It's been an unbelievable four years since we started this journey, where we started out as a podcast which was just exploring some topics and getting into new conversations about India's energy transition. But here we are, three years later, very much into our fourth season, kickstarting our fourth season with a very, very special episode. And we are very excited, we are very delighted and absolutely thankful to our audience here who gave us all our love and support for all these three years. And, me and Sandeep are here to express our gratitude. So thanks to everyone, each and every listener of the India Energy Hour as we kick start this new season, we thought that it would be a great idea to have a primer of what all has happened in the past these many years, especially the last year, which was, instrumental or phenomenal in many senses, for India's energy transition and also the global climate dialogue. So this episode will give you a brief about all what has happened, all what is supposed to happen in the coming year. 2024, could be a watershed year for both India's politics and energy transition. So very happy to have this conversation with my co host and friend and one of the best researchers in the energy transition space, Dr. Sandeep.

Sandeep Pai: Thank you, Shreya. I think I'm very excited to do this kind of fun episode where you and I are just without kind of set of topics, talking about India and global energy and climate issues. As this podcast changed your perspective on indian climate and energy transition so I have one question for you before we get into the real nitty gritties and technical issues and policies around Indian climate.

Have you grown as a person in the last three, four years, as we have grown? In this podcast? I have an answer of what I think, how I have grown. But do you think your own understanding, your own experience, of how you look at, and you are such a remarkable reporter, covering these topics, and you have a pulse on this whole sector, but has it brought any change to you as an individual, as an energy observer?

Shreya Jai: Yes, I think absolutely the answer cannot be anything but yes. And I'll tell you why. One major observation, as you asked, has been that, till yet, the issues that I wrote about or tracked were very India specific, and my focus was also as an Indian reader. Through this podcast, I have realized that you cannot look at issues of India in a silo. There's this whole world out there which is very interested in what is happening in India. And frankly, I was not that much clued in that a certain auction of ten mines here in India, even though the investors and bidders are all Indians, can garner interest from people ranging from the United States to Australia. So, yeah, it does give a feeling of importance to a policy reporter sitting here in Delhi, but also puts kind of a pressure on me as a writer to offer a perspective that is understandable to a larger audience beyond the readers that I used to cater to. So, yeah, that has been a change, and I like to believe that has reflected, in my writing and also in our conversations here. And thanks to the great guests we have had here, the variety of guests we had, ranging from Indian researchers to someone working on oceanography, the range has been so wide, and just listening to their views has opened my eyes to a broad universe, of, energy transition, in the world.

This Podcast helps me explore topics which I don't get to explore in my day job. But I want to know your answer now. You tell me.

Sandeep Pai: So it's very interesting for me also. I think I come from a completely opposite lens, given that I left, mean, obviously, I travel to India so many times a year, I've lost track. but I left India, and I look at climate and energy issues more globally, with, obviously, India being at the center of it. So I have a big picture understanding of many, many issues that's happening around the world. But through this podcast, it has helped me understand the nitty gritties and the nuances of all those big pictures, because sometimes when you do big picture work, you lose track of little details, which are quite important. So it helps me fill my knowledge gap in terms of having both the big picture and the nitty gritties. It also helps me, people think that, oh, energy sector is such a niche topic, but there's hundreds, if not thousands of subtopics within this space. So as a researcher, as a thinker in this space, as a lifelong person who is lifelong, passionately about this field, it helps me explore topics which I don't get to explore in my day job, or I don't have the opportunity. Like, for example, oil and gas sector is not something I look at very closely, but through this podcast, it allows me to kind of have guests and get a broad overview of what's happening and sometimes ask naive questions, which ends up being good questions as well. In that sense, it has been a really great platform for me to explore, varieties of questions, varieties of topics that I had not thought about very deeply over time. and given that this energy and climate issues in India are so important for the world, it's really remarkable for me. Coming back to your point about why India matters to the world, I think that's a really important question. I think that the answer to that, in my experience, is like twofold. One is that India is a large, populous country whose per capita consumption of things are very low, whether it's energy or anything else. But as India urbanizes, industrializes, et cetera, India will need much more energy. And now, whether that energy will come from fossil fuels or will come from renewables or a combination has a serious implication on the global climate. That underlines why world is watching India, why those ten mines that auction in India matters to everybody, whether you're sitting in Berlin or Washington, DC, et cetera. So, yeah, just on that. I think that is why we see even our audience is so global, right? Like, half of our audience is pretty global. Very interested in so many different topics within India that I guess is a good reflection of how we have evolved with this podcast over time.

So, on that note, let me start with one big picture question, and then we can get into some of the topics that are interesting for us. So, the first question I have is, what are some of the big topics that you are excited to watch as an energy junkie, sitting in Delhi for this year, what do you think would be some of the key energy and climate topics that will keep you excited but busy in 2024?

Shreya Jai: That's a very, excited but busy, the next two months, I'm definitely looking forward to because that's my chance, to be a political journalist for two months. but all due respect to my political journalist friends, election is something that we are really looking forward to. And that is obviously a good chance to go out, go on the ground and see, how all the promises, across sectors, not just electricity, have worked on the ground and get to see their impact, or the lacunas and, understand what is exactly, the public things about the big grand policies that were made here, in Lutyens, Delhi. So, yeah, that is one thing I'm looking forward to. Irrespective of what government comes in the country, given the past policy decisions that have happened, I think 2024 should be a decisive year and also a gear shift in a lot of places. I think decisively India should be able to decide on what is the stand on coal and oil and gas and fossil fuel is. We have been very finicky, India has escaped this discussion on various global platforms. You would know that, better than me. but given the pressure is rising, there should be some decisive statement from this country on what exactly is its transition plan when it comes to fossil fuel. We cannot just go on harping about our gigawatts of renewable energy that we are planning. This is the time to tell what exactly are we going to do in coal or reduce our coal usage or our fossil fuel exposure. we are looking at doubling our coal production, but then our plan is to pause it for a while and see how it goes forward. That seems to be the plan. Then, the government has now realized that grid connected solar is no longer the only answer to our renewable energy goals. And we are finally focusing on off grid and decentralized is what are the murmurs that I am hearing that decentralized, off grid renewable energy, would be the next focus area. So that is something that I'm looking forward to. A lot of policy changes have happened in the electricity sector, especially aiming at fixing the health of these state owned power distribution companies. All our podcast episodes which have talked about power sector end up discussing this pain point. but in the last two, three years there have been policy decisions which have tried to fix this problem. If not, then as things stand, and as I can see them or observe, that discoms are now in middle of a triangulation of policies where there is no escape route, they just have to shape up or ship out. Else there are entities which are ready to just replace them and take over their role. Through green open access. There is an opportunity for big commercial players of discoms to go and buy energy directly from someone else. Then through the lps rule or late payment surcharge, discoms are bound to pay to generating companies, else they will lose electricity access through rdss. They are being made to get operational changes or they won't get any budgetary grant. I think that 2024-25 should be the year when we will see a sea change in the distribution sector. At least that's what I'm hoping for. Fingers, crossed. So I think these are the few things that I would like to keep my eye out on. And, this particular government, the ruling government, if it continues its regime, then it is known for giving surprises across several sectors. So I'll also keep an eye out on those sectors. That is my view sitting here in Delhi, my microscopic view.

What is your telescopic view on India and what is bound to happen?

Sandeep Pai: Well, I don't know what's bound to happen, but I think some of the interesting things that will happen, and not to the surprise, I think everybody is watching the election. Well, if I'm not wrong, a lot of policies will be in the flux till the election is over. the new ministers are assigned, the new bureaucrats are assigned. but I think one thing that will again hit the news and it hits global news is summer and coal shortage or power shortage and those kinds of issues. I would be very curious to see, given that India has declared that India will double down on its coal production, also trying to build, like, the power, the power demand has surged. On the other hand, India is saying like it's going to double down on coal production. Companies, like coal, India are confident produce enough coal. it seems that this is a topic which will come up again. And so I'll be curious to see if it is any different this year, in terms of managing. People always debate whether it's a power crisis or a coal crisis, but whatever, the crisis is coal power crisis. so that is one domestic event I would be very curious to watch and see how that goes. It's almost like a tradition in the India Energy Hour, also that we continue to do an episode about that, because it's a topic that comes up every and given that it's an election year, it'll be even more interesting to see if that is a topic given power is something that is so central to. Even though normal people, my relatives, my family don't think about power as such. But when there is a power cut, they all think about it. So, in an election year, I'm very curious to see how India's federal policymakers and the state owned companies, be it NTPC coal, India manages the so called power slash coal crisis, because you talk to power producers, they'll say it's a coal crisis. You talk to coal producers, they'll say it's a power crisis. So that's why I said coal power crisis. That's one event. I'm curious about. The second interesting event would be cop and clean energy Ministerial and all the international forums where India will go. Brazil has a g 20 presidency where, again, this question of a coal phase out, coal phase down, will be hammered. Now, India was very silent at this cop, and I can understand the sentiment behind why India was silent. So this is a cop where the villain was set pre-cop. The villain was the horse and the OPEC, and they were verbally opposing India learned its lesson from the Glasgow cop and said, like, if we speak anything, we will be made the villain. So let's keep silent. So India kept silent. It also signed on to this transitioning away from fossil fuel kind of deal but at the same time, domestically, it's doing what it is required for energy security, which is to double down on renewables, but also double down on fossil fuels because India lacks gas. I can go ahead and call it drama around coal phase down. coal phase out, fossil fuel phase down, fossil fuel phase out is something that will be really interesting for me going forward. the third thing there will be, from an international point of view, there is still steam, in terms of getting India on board on the just energy transition partnerships. Even though in India it's a non topic, people like, I get media requests almost every week about this topic. So there is still steam in this topic. So I'd be curious to see if there is more efforts from G7 to get India on board, because this is going to be the biggest win. Like, getting India on board is more, bigger win than South Africa, Indonesia, and Vietnam and Senegal combined, because then the constituents in the west can go to their constituents, which is their voters and their climate conscious people, and say, look, we got India to phase out of coal. So I'll be curious to see if, what, India does to that pressure. The whole JeTp and any other kind of financial mechanism is another area. I'll be very curious to see, I'm very excited about India's critical mineral journey. It started out quite late. China did this 20-25 years ago. Us is catching up to it like three years ago. And India has woken up to this idea in 2023. But it's exciting. It has unleashed its large, mammoth state owned enterprises, Coal India Carbil, which is a consortium of three state owned enterprises. Although this is the race where India has entered late, it has moved very quickly in a very short span of time. However, this is a really big test of India's both resolute to push this critical mineral, like securing critical minerals such as lithium, cobalt, nickel, within India, doing more exploration, doing quickly and building out those critical mineral blocks. That's a topic I will be watching very closely. But also India's desire through Carbil or its state owned enterprises, or through the private sector as well, to go and actually buy blocks overseas, whether it's in Australia or Argentina where the deals are happening right now, and whether India can compete with the likes of China and US and how India will navigate that system and whether India actually reforms, know the way these psus can go and do the deal, the way right now it happens, is like say India. Say a PSU goes like say, Hindustan copper through Kabil consortium. They go to Argentina, they talk. Okay, Argentina is ready. Let's do it. They have to come back to the ministry. Ministry has to approve. By the time approval comes, six, eight months later, Argentina has lost interest. So I'm curious to see how state owned enterprises in China do it. They identify and block. In two months, they're boom, ready to. In India, like the way system is through million layers of approvals. And all of that, is, I'm not sure if, it will be enough for India to secure those blocks. I'm not sure if that system is seamless enough. So I'm watching very closely into what is going to happen, and not just me. I think India can emerge as a major player in this space and it will be really interesting to see how that dynamic emerges.

Sandeep Pai: Let's talk about the elections. Let's start with one of those things

The final thing, which is my pet topic, which is India's just transition journey, has also from a topic which didn't exist a few years ago to a topic which is now becoming increasingly becoming mainstream. I wouldn't call it mainstream yet, but with the task forces in coal India and the ministry and the World bank and so much research and study around all these topics, it's increasingly becoming more and more mainstream. So obviously, as a scholar of that topic, I would be very closely watching that topic as well. So these are some of the from finance to critical minerals to just transition, to just transition energy, transition partnership to  the summer power coal crisis are some of the topics I would be curiously, watching and observing. So what do you think? Let's talk about the elections. I think that is kind of the elephant in the room. Tell me what happens during the election cycle. Like, what happens to an energy reporter during the election cycle. What do you do? What do you report on?

Shreya Jai:You're asking me to spill the best kept secret here on what we do when there is a policy. pause, here. yeah. I think it is also time for us to kind of restart, reanalyze, look back on what all has happened, see its impact. I think this is the best time to go out on the ground, see, that all the promises that were made in the last five years, how they have turned out to be. So that's what I'll do. I am definitely going out, I am definitely going to key consequences or places where we. Places we have been talking about, where we have seen renewables growth happening or underground coal mining happening. I'll definitely go to such places and see on how, what has been the impact, try to get stories from the ground. That's what I'm planning to do. So, yeah, it's an exciting time ahead. Please do not ask me what I think the election result would be. That's a very controversy, inducing question these days. but this would be an interesting election after ten years of the same government. Every election in India is very keenly observed. This one would be no different. So we'll see what happens, going forward. and sandeep, you listed so many things that you are excited about, so many things that you are looking forward to. Let's start with one of those things because the cynical me will just go out on a rant on all the issues that you're excited about and kill that excitement. But we will keep it for later.

Next month, India will auction its first critical mineral mines

but let's just start with, say, critical minerals. Because next month, the maiden auction of India's critical mineral will start. For the first time, this country would be auctioning critical mineral mines. What are your thoughts on this? You must have gone through the process and the tender and everything. This has become a very active area for the government. What are your thoughts on it? about what are your expectations? Do you think there would be a global investor interest?

Sandeep Pai: That's a million dollar question, but, I think there will be a lot of indian players who will bet. But like everything else, mining is a tough business in India, right? You need so many different levels of clearances. You need so many different levels of, sort of clearances and investments before you actually see the fruits of your investments. So for one thing is, while I'm excited to see India thinking about its critical mineral auctions, I would also be interested for India to think about processing units because right now most of the processing happens in China. Almost 70% for the 50 critical minerals that is in the US list.

Shreya Jai: So.

Sandeep Pai: How are we going to do mining but also do processing at the same time? And I think that is a question I hope that government of India will come to terms with. And think of now, the challenge of that is that processing unit may come under a different ministry than mines, and so it would require also a seamless coordination, within the different ministries because merely producing and then shipping it to China and then bringing back the finished product is not the journey I think India should get into. Although I'm excited about the domestic prospects and I think India needs to go in that direction, the other interesting thing that I would be very interested in is what India does overseas. Can Indian Psus go and explore more blocks? Can they create that supply chain? Because one has to understand that each critical mineral will have its own supply chains, right? Like somewhere you are producing the rock or the ore, then you are taking it, you're processing it, you're shipping it. So how is India thinking about critical minerals in an integrated ways is an important question in my mind. Rather than thinking about it in just a mining point of view, is there an integrated critical mineral supply chain policy, rather than critical mineral mining policies is to me the next phase of this work outside, and inside the government. and so this puzzle about and investors, unless there are very high clear returns, they have other places to go and invest. India's market on critical minerals is quite new. The discoveries on block about how much reserves they have, the exploration is still happening. parallel to that, there are already discovered blocks everywhere else with easier policies to go and invest in the first phase, I think a lot of this load will perhaps need to be taken up by indian domestic actors. However, there will be an interesting. I'll be interested to see how many institutional investors or investors rather, in general, come and invest in critical minerals.

Shreya Jai: Yeah, I think you made a very great point about, is anyone looking at a supply chain, I think that is very important to look at. And that is a question I believe a lot of people must be thinking about because there is a plan for enhancing electric mobility in the country and the supporting infrastructure. Then there is a separate scheme for battery manufacturing and the production linked incentive battery PlI scheme. Then there is this auction of critical minerals. So I'm also sitting there and hoping that there hopefully is someone who is weaving all these three together and looking it at a single supply chain where you would be mining a mineral which will go into the battery manufacturing industry, which eventually would land with the domestic electric mobility. Because I believe the focus in all these three is that we should have a domestic supply chain of critical minerals so that we build electric, mobility or energy storage supply chain. So I hope that happens, because if it keeps happening in silos, the end result remains, very unsatisfactory, if I can, say so. And I think from a global investor's perspective also that supply chain matters a lot, if you talk to a lot of electric mobility players, or similarly, players in the solar manufacturing segment for that matter, which was a late starter in the country compared to solar power production. And the only problem is that there is no ecosystem. If you were to produce solar panel tomorrow in gigawatts, or if you were to mine lithium, cobalt, nickel, if there is no ecosystem, if you still have to import some equipment for the battery or some equipment for the solar panel, it doesn't make sense at all. The whole supply chain needs to be domestic, I think and  with a focus on Atmirvar Bharat, which has been one of the flagship schemes and make in India. I hope we have learned lessons from our past mistakes in solar manufacturing, taken out good lessons from how we built automobile manufacturing supply chain and replicate the good models in the critical mineral battery electric mobility ecosystem.

Sandeep Pai: You're right, absolutely. I think the importance of systems thinking, the importance of the whole supply chain thinking is important. But I'm going back to your original question about India's auctioning of mines and all that. So right now India has two strategies on critical metals, just to get the ore. First is to do the auctions and all of that. It's really like early days, exploration is still going on. Once they explore, once they find good deposits, auctions will happen, et cetera, et cetera. And then finally, by the time mining starts, it's going to be a few years. The second is through state owned enterprises. India is trying to buy mines. And I highlighted some issues that they have as, they're trying to buy mines and trying to invest in other companies. The third thing, which is almost completely unexplored in India is, did you know that there is so much critical minerals in coal waste, overburden. And if you look at what China has done or what us has done, or what Canada and other countries have done, is they have funded universities, research institutes and companies, too, to actually go and extract critical minerals from coal waste. Like fly ash, rare earth, sorry, fly ash, or acid mine drainage or coal rejects, for instance. But India has not even started thinking in that direction. and that actually speaks at the heart of this supply chain problem, because if you can do that, you're neither mining anything. You're actually basically taking this rock, which is a waste, and causes destruction in local regions. And you can literally do processing right there, and then you have the critical mineral ready to. So it baffles me like that India has not thought in that direction, has not invested in R d in that direction. I mean, you can't have all your eggs in one or two baskets. You have to think in various different ways. There is so much coal waste out there. we can go into that rabbit hole about that, but there's coal waste, there's acid mine drainage, there's overburden. so this is also another area that India needs to invest in. Other countries have invested for ten years. First commercial projects in us have come up. I have visited one of those projects. but in India, this is not even a topic of discussion. So if we have to win this race, we can't just do mega announcements. I think we also need to invest in r and d. coal is one example. I'm sure geologically there are many other rocks and many other wastes that have critical minerals. I think that is another area one has to kind of, I think, you know, we can also talk about other topics, but I thought this is a good way to close the loop on critical minerals.

Shreya Jai: Yeah. That's a great point. Sandeep. I think that is something to take note of.

You also mentioned how important India's stand has become on climate and energy transition

By the, know, as you were talking, I was thinking that there are so many expectations riding on this country. You also mentioned earlier that, how important India's stand has become on the global stage of climate and energy transition. But there's this one issue that still remain unaddressed. And the only reason is because India has maintained a very silent, quiet stand on it. And that is just energy transition partnership, or JETP, where countries are pushing us to come and join this partnership, but we have indian government. the Indian policymakers have maintained their stand that, no, we don't need to join any such partnership. This is just meant to fool us to phase out coal. there's no money coming in, and this is just a way to get us to sign something that we do not. And these are exactly the words that I heard from someone. Anyway, so, what are your thoughts? Do you think something positive to happen in Jetp? Do you think India will be able to call out a deal that suits us? But before you get into that, I first want to know how and why India stands to benefit from JETP. Let me be a devil's educator.

Sandeep Pai: So let me just take a few steps back and kind of understand the motivation of JeTP. Right. So this is an idea. In the west, coal is on its way out for various reasons. It's not always because it's not always for climate reasons. Like us has discovered shell gas. and of course renewables have played a part as well. But overall, and the coal fleet in the west is quite old. So anyway, they would be shut down regardless of climate or non-climate reasons. So for a range of reasons, coal is on its way out. Just transition, which is a topic which is about thinking about workers and communities and regions that are dependent on coal. On coal is a mainstream topic in many OECD countries, including the G seven countries. Whether it's Canada, Canada has a sustainable Investment act, which is basically a just transition act. Us has billions of dollars for coal communities rolled out. So it's a hot mainstream topic. It's an election topic, right? So this has been a topic there for a bit. Now, progressive parties in these countries think that what we have done about just transition in our country, let's take it to developing countries, right? So because their constituents, who are more international minded, are saying to them like, it's fine, you're doing some stuff here, but it's also your responsibility because you are a global climate leader, so called global climate leader. So as a global climate leader, it's no longer enough to do something domestically, by the way, which is questionable because of the rise in oil and gas. So on the one hand, they're talking about a coal phase out and all. On the other hand, look at us oil production, how it's shooting up. So if you just make a deal out of coal, then fine, you're a climate leader. But if you're looking at the energy system and other fossil fuels, then it's questionable who is a climate leader. But keeping aside that side, like it's a hot and unknown topic in the west, you have to understand that policymakers in a country like India don't know what just transition is. Most of them, it's a topic which you know that four or five years ago, not one person knew. Forget a policymaker. Like, not even academics knew. Right? So the understanding of G seven leaders. When Biden administration talks about just transition, people in us know what they are. Some people like it, some people hate it, but they know it. When somebody goes and comes to and talks to a bureaucrat in, mea or a power ministry, these guys have no idea what you're talking about. What is this just transition? So people underestimate how the knowledge gap between the leaders and the vocabulary of just transition is so different from. So it even took some time for bureaucrats in India to understand. What are you talking. What is this? What are you even talking about? Are you talking about Mars or Jupiter or Saturn or Pluto? I have no idea. So that's the beginning. That's point. number one. Now, when people started understanding what this is, they already had examples from South Africa, Indonesia and Vietnam, where the deals happened, where basically political declarations happened. And the headline says, g seven helping South Africa wean off coal. Like, if you google all the headlines that happened and what happened now, three years later, not much has happened. Money hasn't flown. So that experience has also made sure that the policymakers in India who even had an inclination after understanding a topic that they didn't know about, had an inclination. The experience generally about climate finance, and in particular about JeTP in other countries, has shown that it's more of a headline grabbing. So sometimes I call it and people don't like it. I like to call it just headline partnership. So it's a partnership about headlines. Go to cop. You declare everybody's good headlines. Washington Post will say, oh, India wean of coal, g seven. But first of all, the money is ridiculous for a country like South India. If you are offering $10 billion coal, India can give you that money. Like g seven can have that money. It's not an attractive money. It's not in attractive terms. It's also not a money that will come in the form of grants or anything else. So why should a country like India sign up to something? And then what happens is the details are also all lost in big international forums. G seven leaders will go and say, oh, we are giving money to India. But India is still doubling down on coal. So there is sort of this cycle of understanding that is required into why it's not happening. But I don't want to end in a negative note on this topic. I do think that if India wants to make a just transition deal, and if G seven wants to, it needs to be specific. The way jetps have happened is I can summarize in steps. Step one, pick leaders, say, from South Africa or the top leadership of G seven. And that country has come together and they have declared something. There are no details. We will give you $10 billion. That's it. After the declaration and all the headlines of data, they have formed a committee. They have come up with an investment plan. Investment plan has now said that, okay, investment plan is also not specific. It's about, oh, we want money for transportation, we want money for repurposing of coal. Which coal plant? Not clear. Right.

So it has not reached the project finance stage. It is still talking in broad sectors

So it has not reached the project finance stage. It is still talking in broad sectors. If we have to do it differently, I would do it in this way. India identifies ten projects that it wants to do. I mean, India will close down some coal plants and mines, right? Coal. India wants to close so many mines. Why don't you ask money for that? It's simple. You're anyway closing. And that's what Indonesia is doing. That's what South Africa is doing. The money that will eventually come is for plants they are anyway closing. Right. So India comes up with a list of 15 projects it wants to go, negotiates the terms of those projects with G seven. When negotiate, not just the terms of financing, but when that money will come, then signs out. So both sides should do the homework, negotiate, then sign into something, not the other way around where you are playing to the headlines, then thinking about the details, because once the headlines die down, you have lost interest in that. On the one hand, real money coming from JeTP, I am suspicious about. It does do one thing. It does educate people, because this topic is coming to India. The whole topic of just translation. Whether Indian policymakers like it, hate it, they have to live with it. It's coming. It may not come in five years. It's coming in ten years. Unless you are going to abandon eight states in India, this topic is coming. So what this JeTP conversation does is it sensitizes indian policymakers. So even if the deal doesn't happen, I think some of the benefits of JETP have already happened.

Shreya Jai: I completely agree. Just transition is the topic. I'm very proud that we did three episode series on just transition, back in 2022, when we closed our season two. And just thereafter, we opened our season three with a brilliant episode from Ulka which talked about going beyond headlines. I think that was the title of that episode. So that summarizes the discussion around just transition and going beyond the headlines.

I think India is at cusp of energy transition

Sandeep Pai: Shreya, I had one last question for you, which is. So, as an observer of the energy sector, India's energy sector was about energy policies and about providing electricity and energy to people of India. I think this whole vocabulary of energy transition is very new in India. I would be curious about how you think this new vocabulary of energy transition will evolve even further in 2024. Do you think that will happen?

Shreya Jai: Yeah, that is a great observation. I think standing at the cusp of this transition, there are some issues. There are some terms which will come to fore as India plans this energy transition. I agree that issues which were making headlines, say, a decade back or 15 or 20 years back, are no longer the priority because they have been addressed to a certain extent. Though the cynic in me will continue to say that despite electrifying all the households of this country, power supply, reliable power supply, is a relevant issue in this country. Free electricity continues to be a major problem and should just not exist in the economic policy making of this country. The state of power discoms, an issue, which we have repeated multiple times, has gone through so many policies, changes continue to exist as a problem. That is the cynical part of me, the hopeful part of me wants these issues to be resolved because then it will pave way for future growth, the way renewable energy growth is happening in this country, the way grid is being planned in this country. For that, I think those are the issues that need to be discussed.

Sandeep says grid planners should start talking beyond just demand and supply

I was at an event and there was this speech, by the head of grid India, Earth's Wild Posako, which, for the uninitiated, manages, and operates the national grid of the country. And in middle of his speech, he said something very interesting. He threw a lot of technical terms, but the summary of it was that India's grid planners, managers should now start talking about going beyond just demand and supply. We should be talking about the technical security, the cybersecurity of our grid. We should be talking about how to pool in so much of green energy into this grid and prepare it for ten years later. We should imagine a scenario where our coal power plants are running at 40% plf and we have to scale up energy somehow. We have to imagine a grid where battery storage plays a key role. And that is the kind of conversation one should be talking. One should be listening and talking much more about, because these are the issues of the future. We cannot have slow policy making anymore where you are just, if you are doing discom reforms that's going on for five years. No, I think, development across green energy, energy transition, electric mobility, batteries, et cetera, is happening much more faster than the policymakers are imagining it to be. So, yes, the vocabulary needs to change. Yes, we need to imagine a grid of the future. We need to design our energy pie for the future. And yes, just transition needs to be a major part of this discussion, because when we are talking about preparing this country for 500 gigawatt of renewable energy, you just cannot forget those eight estates which depend on coal. This needs to address and as soon as possible, because even if it will take 1020 years for India to phase out coal, the preparation needs to begin now, because a whole generation depends on coal and thermal power industry. So, yes, I'm really hoping that the vocabulary, the energy vocabulary of this country changes for better. that would give us writers like me and my peers ample opportunity to write about new and upcoming topics and issues. And it definitely will give us new and unique topics to discuss on the India Energy podcast where I'm sure we will have some amazing people to come and talk about how the future of India's energy transition would look like.

Sandeep Pai: Yeah, I'm really excited. I think 2024 is going to be an year where India will transition from being a country that thinks about India's energy policy to India's energy transition, broadly defined policy. So I think it's going to be a really interesting year. It's going to be a really tumultuous year in terms of having an election in between. But that also gives us a lot of ammo to bring a range and variety of guests, to come and talk about a range of topics, that addresses both the energy needs of people of India, but also addresses the climate. so keep listening, keep showering us with love and support. Do send us any new ideas you have, because we love to hear from you. And if you have a great idea or a guest idea or a topic idea, do let us know. We take your feedback, we take your suggestions quite seriously, and we will absolutely do our best to make sure that if you send us a suggestion, we bring the kind of guests and the kind of topic you're interested in listening. So thank you so much. Thank you, Shreya. It was a really fun conversation, unplanned, unscripted conversation with you, and so I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you to everybody.

Shreya Jai: Yes, totally. and I hope our audience also loved it. Thank you so much, for all the support. Thank you, Sandeep. It was a great conversation. And the unsung heroes of this podcast. The unseen heroes of this podcast is the production team, which designs, which edits this podcast, offers it in a very listenable manner to our audiences. A big thank you to the production team at, The India Energy Hour and the 101 Reporters. We would not have been here had it not been for you guys. So thanks again and to our audiences. stay tuned. A lot of exciting episodes are coming your way in the coming months. See you all.

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We are on Twitter. You can follow @tieh_podcast and get in touch with 2 hosts @shreya_jai and @sandeeppaii

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